I understand but regarding LH, does long term use of HCG throughout the cycle not run the risk of desensitising your natural LH? I have experience using testosterone esters of enanthate and sustanon with 4 different esters and dbol for a short period of 8 weeks and used HCG before I began pct I recovered very easy.
I know the compounds aren't quite as harsh as more powerful androgens like deca and tren, but more experienced bodybuilders have told me to leave the pinning of HCG until the later stages of the cycle before pct begins and mainly gave the reasons I stated above for doing so!
I have seen studies that found no evidence of leydig cell desensitization up to doses as high as 5000iu each other day. And this is high. If you are using HCG from the start, I would anticipate a necessity of no more than 500-1000 iu each week (pinned each other day, but this should be your weekly total.) In order to have effect. At such a trivial dose, you're not overloading your testes by any means.
5000 IU will cause down regulation, but the testes will continue to respond.
Would you recommend HCG throughout a cycle with nandrolone?Originally Posted by Ari
Since it's Nandrolone, it's generally preferred. Since its shorter ester, and it seems you prefer shorter cycles, you may and should be fine. But it doesn't hurt to be cautious. Nandrolone is infamous for near complete suppression of endogenous testosterone compared to other compounds.
Cheers Ari!
Cheers! And good luck. Try to keep the little boys safe for me.
The following study used hCG 5,000 IU twice per week for 3 months. [So much for Leydig Cell Desensitization!!!]
Does anyone know why the testes volume decreased? [Testis volume was significantly decreased (approximately 5 ml; P < 0.05).]
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.87.7.8630
Upon looking at the study, my first idea as to why the volume decreased would be because HCG is an LH agonist, not having a particularly large effect on FSH. Upon further examination it would appear possible that the lowered FSH levels could be responsible for the size differences. I've heard that HMG could raise FSH? But I'm unsure. It would seem one of the biggest weak points in treatment is the lack of FSH supplementation, or agonists utilized.
The answer lies in the type of hCG, extractive (e) or recombinant (r). rhCG has NO FSH activity.
"Forty eligible men (mean age, 67 yr; range, 60-85 yr) were randomized to receive r-hCG (5000 IU, 250 microg)."
Hrm... I see. I was unaware of those differences in the type of hCG, but I'm glad I was at least on the right track. I had no idea ehCG stimulated FSH to any significant degree as well. Though... that is why I'm in this forum. To expand my knowledge.
Why would one want to stimulate FSH(what purpose)?
And is it possible one would not be able to respond to hcg?
It seems highly unlikely, as HCG is an agonist, directly mimicking LH, and you'd want to stimulate FSH for the same reason as LH. A decline in FSH results in decreased testicular volume, function, and in particular fertility. Clomid normally is responsible for raising FSH up. FSH and LH are both important when it comes to normal testicular functioning.
HCG does not stimulate LH expanse. It directly mimics it. I can't see how it'd be ineffectual unless ones dosage is too low due to testicular shutdown going on for too long, in which case you'd most likely want a front load dose in order to shock them back before persisting with lower doses to keep them active.
However. I'd get a second opinion before attempting my theorized front loading approach.
To me, it seems if you're stimulating one over the other, you'd disrupt some sort of balance, or at least make it harder to recover the one not covered, and disrupt normal functionality. Sertoli cells would be neglected.
In my case .2 lh .3 fsh. so your saying stimulating one over the other could be why?
You'd only be stimulating Leydig cells which respond to LH, and not the Sertoli cells, which respond to FSH.
Read before that FSH supports leydig cell function by what mechanism is unknown. I have seen guys with bloods using hCG post cycle and LH dropped even in the presence of both clomid, and nolvadex, but interesting FSH did move up while on hCG and SERM's. Most of the mass is for sperm production.
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