IGF-1 LR3 is the most common, popular and prevalent form available right now. But, there is a big question of whether it works and by what mechanism. Originally we had a bio-identical version of igf-1, rigf-1, that was very short acting. Though it was in and out of your system very quickly it had a reputation for inducing hyperplasia (activation and maturation of muscle satellite cells). LR3 was developed for use in the lab in tissue cultures because the bio-identical igf-1 was not lasting in experiments. rigf-1= 70 amino acids, LR3= 83 amino acid sequence. As a result LR3 works very differently. Most in the know say that it is not going to activate satellite cells/induce hyperplasia because of it's amino acid structure. It just doesn't bind to the cells and cannot be broken down properly in the body for that purpose. It does, however, have insulin-like effects (duh, right?). I've experienced this first hand. So, used on a steroid cycle it'll boost gains just as humalog would. Do you get pumps and greater vascularity from insulin? Well, you'll get it from IGF-1 LR3 as well. And, imo, that's about it. It's all of the "insulin like" with non of the (for our purposes/hyperplasia) special "growth factor."
MGF/PEG-MGF
The second most common/popular igf-1 drug is MGF/PEG-MGF- Mechano Growth Factor. Another name for it is IGF-1Ec. It is different than IGF-1 LR3 in structure and effect. The PEG form is simply a longer acting form of MGF, not an entirely different structure like we see in rigf-1 vs igf-1 lr3. Most people will say that PEG-MGF's effects are systemic and MGF's effects are local. i.e. PEG is for the whole body and regular MGF is for "site-enhancement." Personally, I don't buy this. Like I said, it's not two entirely different structures like the two igf-1s. MGF is so short acting that I doubt its effects can fully be seen even when used for site enhancement. It's simply broken down too fast. So the question is]
For local/site-enhancement to work the product has to basically be used while it is in said location. I.e. you shoot it in your biceps and before it can move out into the rest of your body it is broken down in the muscle and "put to work" stimulating the satellite cells and helping them become new muscle. How long does PEG-MGF stay in that "site"? How effective is MGF at this to begin with?
I don't know. That's the short answer. But, I do know that it has more potential for site-enhancement than IGF-1LR3 because it is still a usable form when it comes to effecting satellite cells. It's up to you whether you want to use the PEG form or not. I honestly couldn't tell you which is best and you'll see people swearing each one is better than the other.
The main thing I want to get across is that it isn't like LR3 where they totally changed the structure to make it "longer acting". With MGF they simply PEGylated it so that it would hold up longer in the system. You still have the original drug, just a longer-acting version of it. To me, since PEG MGF is longer-acting and also an original, bio-available form of IGF-1, I give it better chances at working overall than IGF-1 LR3. I know some will say I'm comparing apples to oranges here. But, I feel more like I'm comparing IGF-1 to insulin. PEG-MGF is still going to have unique effects other than nutrient shuttling, IGF-1 LR3 is not!
DES (1-3) IGF-1
DES (1-3) IGF-1 is the latest and, to me, the most promising of all the igf-1 drugs. It is basically bio-available igf-1 (like the original) but with the last 3 amino acids taken off. Some would ask, why does this make it better? Well, that makes it the most bio-available form.
See, here's what happens in our bodies naturally. When we lift weights we produce lactic acid. We also increase hormone output, insulin, GH, test, igf-1 etc. One of the ways that our bodies grow is this]
With DES (1-2) IGF-1, the work is already done for us. And, since it's a larger dose (especially considering what would survive in the end naturally) than our bodies puts out naturally, it is theoretically many times more effective than original rIGF-1 and the other forms.
Here's a bit longer post from a couple years ago when this stuff was super expensive and hard to find. It's still hard to find, but it's out there....
"DES (1-3) IGF-1 (NOT THE SAME AS IGF-1)
Most athletes have heard of IGF-1 (Insulin like growth factor-1) and the amazing anabolic effects it has been reported to have upon protein based tissue such as muscle. Des (1-3) IGF-1 is over 10 times (1000%) more anabolic than IGF-1. Now that is amazing!!
IGF-1 is actually produced from both Insulin and growth hormone in the liver and other tissues. IGF-1 is made up of 70 amino acids in a chain. Well, when a clever chemist removes the last 3 amino acids in the IGF-1 chain (the N-terminal tri-peptide) it becomes Des (1-3) IGF-1 and 1000% plus more anabolic. Why? IGF-1 circulates through our blood stream and tissue 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Unfortunately, most of the IGF-1 is inactive because it is bound by another protein called (get this) IGF-1 Binding Protein-3, or IGF-1-BP-3 for short. Since bound hormones can not fit into and trigger a receptor-site, the majority of circulating and muscle IGF-1 can not trigger an anabolic stimulus. Like tons of cellulite in a porno movie (who watches those?) there is little good stuff happening. However, when IGF-1 is altered and becomes Des (1-3) IGF-1 the binding protein IGF-1-BP-3 can not bind to it and it is totally active. Another reason Des (1-3) IGF-1 is so potent is its unique ability to fit into lactic acid altered IGF-1 receptor sites. (YUP) When we train we burn carbohydrates as a fuel to make cellular ATP. When cells switch to this ATP pathway, the by-product is Lactic Acid. This is of course the cause of most of the burn we feel during intense or higher rep sets. Well, the lactic acid build-up is called acidosis, and it destroys the shape of some receptor-sites for period of time. Therefore some anabolic/anti-catabolic hormones have difficulty merging with their respective receptor- site and triggering a response (such as even unbound IGF-1). Not so with Des (1-3) IGF-1, the super growth factor. It fits into the IGF-1 receptor-site even after acidosis. Des (1- 3) IGF-1 is unbound, over 10 times more potent than IGF-1, and it picks receptor-site locks. Too bad it has only a few minute active-life.
Did you know that our body's make Des (1-3) IGF-1 naturally? It is true, when an athlete trains lactic acid builds up in muscle tissue...as we know, there is always IGF-1 / GH present in the blood stream and tissues (including muscle) from prior work-outs and other metabolic factors. That lactic acid burn triggers IGF-1/GH secretion from both work out sessions. Unfortunately, lactic acid destroys some of the IGF-1 present in muscles being trained.... But wait, this is also positive!
Lactic acid also cuts (truncates) the last 3 amino acids off the 70 amino acid chain of some of the surviving IGF-1 and creates Des (I-3) IGF-1. So acidosis increases GH/IGF-1 production in the liver, unbinds IGF-1 locally in the muscle being trained (burned), destroys some of the IGF-1, and converts some IGF-1 into Des (I-3) IGF-1. Huh, good deal. And the synthetic form of this super anabolic stuff is beginning to show up on the black market more frequently.
IGF-2 LR3
This one is kind of obscure. But, from what I can gather about it it is a hormone that is present during gestation. It has a 67 amino acid sequence (like DES (1-3) IGF-1). It is said to do the same thing as IGF-1 LR3, but faster. Well, if that refers to hyperplasia then I'd agree that, at least on paper, this should be much faster! I mean, it actually is a substance produced in the body whereas 1-LR3 isn't even bio-available for what we want it for (83 amino acid chain remember, doesn't "fit" in the receptor!).
It is said to have a synergistic effect when combined with 1-LR3. But, my instincts would say to combine it with DES for better results. The idea being that, just like a lot of GH peptides, combining a good IGF-1 with a good IGF-2 has a synergistic effect where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. i.e. if you took igf-1 alone it'd do x amount of what you want, same with igf-2, but combine them and the results are multiplied supposedly. Again, I'd (and will) go with DES (1-3) IGF-1 when combining with IGF-2 Lr3 rather than combining it with IGF-1 LR3 for reasons stated before.
Putting it all together, what's the best protocol?
Obviously I'm taking a bit of a stab in the dark at what the optimal igf protocol might be at this time. But, it is an educated guess.
First of all, I want to clarify a few myths]1) It's the fact that IGF-1 LR3 is "long acting" that makes it not as good for site-enhancement/hyperplasia. That's what makes it a "systemic" igf hormones vs a "local" site-enhancement drug.
Wrong. While it is longer acting than original rIGF-1, it is the fact that it is an 83 amino acid sequence that causes it not to work for our purposes. It basically (and yes, I'm waaay over-simplifying it, that's what I do!) doesn't "fit" in the receptor site! It still has insulin-like properties. And, for those that have used it and other variants you'll see that it actually has the most insulin-like properties of any of them. My theory is specifically because it doesn't get used any other way! It isn't metabolised/broken down like normal igf-1 and it can be used by the muscle the same way. What's left? Yep, systemic, insulin-like effects similar to low-moderately dosed humalog or humalin-r. That doesn't make it worthless, just over-priced for it's actually benefits.
2) PEG-MGF will not have localized effects because it is too long-acting
Wrong. This one doesn't make sense when you think about it]
Here's the real question]
Does PEGylation make MGF too large to work? It depends on how its done and how heavy the formula is.
The other thing to consider is]
3) Since IGF-2 LR3 is an LR3 drug, then it must be similar to IGF-1 LR3.
Wrong. It's not even close. 1-LR3 is 83 amino acids and 2-LR3 is 67. One is ideal and one is almost useless.
So, what's the best overall protocol?
Again, this is my best educated guess. But, based on the science, I would proceed like this]
MGF is a gene spliced version of IGF-1 and it is more of a "defining" drug. I don't mean fat loss, I mean that it tells the now-active satellite cells what to become. Immediately post workout is when your body has the greatest amount of trauma to the muscle and the satellite cells are most active in the muscles you've just worked. Taking MGF at this time helps define those cells as muscle, puts them to work and tells them what to do! Have another carb/amino/creatine etc. shake after your MGF shot. Shoot the MGF into the muscles worked that you want to see more site growth from.
How much should you take? Where should you buy it? I don't know. Go with a supplier you trust and read up on dosages. Most DES and Igf-2 users take somewhere around 10-20mcg ea. which sounds about right to me. If you are having trouble getting/finding these, talk to your supplier and let them know you are interested in these. They respond to demand not necessarily science. So, speak up! Give this a shot if you are curious.
I'm not guaranteeing results from exogenous IGF-I analog protein peptide administrations... But I thought it'd be nice to air theory - define what works and why and hear other people's thought on it - Do you have experience with these polypeptides? What do you think of the new best-seller, deer antler velvet? I want to hear others experiences and thoughts on it, at your leisure please.
I'm fairly new to peptides and I have a question that I hope you can help me with. I plan on using PEG MGF& IGF-1 LR3 during my cycle. I know it's best to use LR3 post workout, But when should I take the MGF?
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I'm fairly new to peptides and I have a question that I hope you can help me with. I plan on using PEG MGF& IGF-1 LR3 during my cycle. I know it's best to use LR3 post workout, But when should I take the MGF?
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I dont know that administering IGF-1 LR3 post workout makes much difference.* Plenty of credible researchers see value in MGF (I have not seen any that has kept my attention).* Certainly the problem with these particular peptides.* Next to nothing as far as clinical data and certainly no instructions.
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THank you for responding, I understand thier isn't any clinical data. Can you offer a suggestion as to when the best time to take the PEG MGF & LR3?
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My understanding is LR3 in the mornings (not critically important) and MGF asap after intense workouts.* Get healthy, heavy resistance and loads of protein..* many love what the insulin like growth factor peptides do as far as glucose disposal
"[b]steroid insight wrote] Truly, IGF won't do that much for you, I've used a ton of both, I was given enough LR3 to run a full year. Which most guys go by the 4 weeks on 4 off cycling with it. "
100mcg of LR3 is usually the upper range. As doses go up you may notice some decrease in blood sugar.
100mcg is the typical dose of DES.
The point of IGF is its insulin like. Insulin works so well by shuttling nutrients into the muscle. IGF sorta works on the same principle granted not as well. But as noted, you will want a good amount of protein/carbs/BCAA/EAA/Glutamine/Creatine. Hopefully the IGF will force as much of this into the muscle as possible.
Honestly I've never known anyone to make significant gains off IGF. I'm not saying its not if good use, but when someone adds it to a cycle and says its the best cycle they ever had, you have to question a few things. First how much experience with AAS does the person have? For many, you could run the same compounds three different times, and have differing results each time. A lot is going to depend on diet, type of training, supplements, type and extent of cardio.
Ill agree that IGF has some properties that do seen to help lean out or keep lean, but if iu are starting with a high percentage of BF, don't expect to walk away with showing abs. It also can help increase appetite, especially when BG lowers, the natural tendency is to eat, and for most it's a craving for foods, especially those high in fast acting carbs or sugars so you kinda need to watch what you consume.
IGF in general is a controversial topic. Many day it's an important factor in muscle growth and hypertrophy, others feel that it has no specific benefit in terms of actual muscle gains. There's also the theory that by using LR3 during the same day you train, you are preventing mgf from performing its natural function and inhibiting the growth of muscle.
There are so many differing thoughts on this that its simply confusing. Here's what I've noticed from IGF use, if you are already lean, yes it can help add size with AAS(being the cause of the majority of gains, and pretty much all the gains) and it can help give a bit of a harder more vascular look. Des will give iu some pretty intense muscle pump used pre w/o.
My feeling is if it helps shuttle any nutrients used then its worth while. Any help you can get at feeding the muscle is worth while. I like both lr3 and des, but I'm not sold on it causing muscle hypertrophy. I still feel its a good addition.
LR3 is helpful in post cycle. It can help to retain some of the hard earned muscle gains, for some just knowing they are still injecting something in pct is enough to keep them mentally motivated, but it also seems to help with maintaining pumps that some lose in pct.
As far as mixing goes. Many peptide companies maintain that AA is not necessary. I've used it both ways. IMO injecting acetic acid is not going to benefit a muscle, it will cause damage. Personally the only time I use AA, is when I make it myself.
I also believe its correct that it may be a bit more stable, I usually will just use a 50/50 split of AA/BW.
With mixing, it is very simple. Keep in mind that 1000mcg is equal to 1mg. Most IGF and peptide vials are 2ml vials. You determine the concentration.
I simply add 2ml of bw to all peptides, or in this case you could use 1ml BW, and 1ml AA. So 2ml now is equal to 1000mcg.
1ml = 500mcg
On a 1ml insulin pin, it's marked in iu, don't worry about iu, but rather the numbers and dashes between them. If 1ml is equal to 500mcg, then each line with 10 next to it is 50 mcg. So 10- is 50mcg, 20-100mcg 30-150mcg, 40-200mcg, 50-250mcg and so on.
Each line between 10/20/30/40 etc is equal to 10mcg.
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I'm fairly new to peptides and I have a question that I hope you can help me with. I plan on using PEG MGF& IGF-1 LR3 during my cycle. I know it's best to use LR3 post workout, But when should I take the MGF?
"
The major problem using the Lr3, it has a long half-life.* Some say this will interfere with the body producing it's own MGF after you train.* So what many do is use the DES before training to get the great pump and help shuttle nutrients into the muscle furthering hypertrophy.* and after they train the use the MGF.* Many go 1 hour after training and then again every 4 hours.* If you use the PEG version on time about an hour after training should do since the half life is hours not minutes like non-PEG MGF.*
Some also take the LR3 in the morning if they train in the PM.* I my experience with it, I have not seen a difference in morning or pre-workout.* I prefer 30 minutes before I train and love the pumps it gives.* I have also seen no difference in growth using it before or after training.* I still use the MGF @ 1 hour and every 4 hours.* With the Lr3, I feel the pump the next morning almost like I just got out of the gym.
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