My GHRP-2 CJC-1295 thread
Just gonna start a new thread with this
Hi
Im gonna give this a try for three months when the goods gets here could be another week yet.
GHRP-2 CJC-1295 without Dac
A once a day dose before bed to try and get the youthful amounts of GH back.
Things I will be looking out for are skin elasticity and BF%.
Dose will be 200mcg GHRP-2 and 100mcg of CJC-1295 pre-bed every night
Here is some info I gathered together while researching this.
Dosing
1
In the studies on growth hormone releasing hormone (GHRH) and all the different growth hormone releasing peptides (GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Hexarelin...) they either use a weight based dosing, for example 1mcg/kg or just fixed amount, for example 100mcg.
For some reason I have never seen a study indicate that the distinction in methodology mattered. My best guess is that a large portion of the growth hormone studies are aimed at children. Children w/ growth hormone defeciency were the first approved category of prescribed users and they continue to be the largest target group. Weight and drug use matters in children. Drug reactions both good & bad are positively correlated to weight in children. There is much more concern about the body's ability to compensate for too much of an administered drug. Adults seem to have more tolerance to a wider range of drug dosing.
My present opinion is that weight should not be used to determine adult dosages. Gender differences of course...but this is not related to weight. So if you are 200 pounds or 250 pounds it shouldn't matter. Again this is just my opinion because I haven't ever found anything to indicate that it is important.
Of course absence of knowledge is not knowlede of absence so take it for what its worth.
I believe that a bodybuilding dose is]
100mcg of CJC-1295 + 100 - 200 mcg GHRP-6 three times a day.
...and an anti-aging dose (still high enough for fatloss) is 100mcg of CJC-1295 pre-bed and 100mcg of GHRP-6 twice a day.
2
Quote]Originally Posted by kutch
Also, any opinions on this study]50mcg of CJC + 50mcg of GHRP-6 daily AND additional 50mcg of GHRP-6 PWO(or pre-breakfast)
You will get an increase in GH levels at that dose. If you do that run it for a longer period of time...and you should see a contribution to a tighter core.
Quote]Originally Posted by kutch
Learning a lot here. Are you saying to dose a CJC/GHRP combo pre-bed?
Yes.
Quote]Originally Posted by kutch
Others have said that dosing hgh pre-bed may affect your normal hgh release after you fall asleep. Is the CJC/GHRP combo different since your body is producing the hgh and it's not coming from an external source which may trigger your body to stop producing hgh?
Yes.
Quote]Originally Posted by kutch
Also, since your body is already producing an hgh spike after you sleep, wouldn't it be more cost effective(if that's a priority) to skip that pre-bed dose?
No. In males the night-time growth hormone pulse is many many multiples larger then at any other time of the day.
So using an arbitrary example, if you introduce a doubling agent (i.e. a compound/factor capable of doubling the effect/outcome) into a pulse that has a secretory value of 100 then you end up with 200.
However if you introduce that same doubling agent into a pulse that has a secretory value of 10 then you end up with 20.
Aside from just mere volume the night-time growth hormone release is positively correlated with slow wave sleep. If you can do something to support slow wave sleep then you also end up supporting strong GH release. If you can do something to support night-time GH release you also end up supporting restful "growth & repair" promoting sleep.
Thats why when you use CJC or GHRP-6 you end up with deeper more regenerative sleep.
Below is something I wrote explaining Slow Wave Sleep & GH release. I know it is not directly related to your question but it is helpful to understand]SWS & GH release
There are two types of sleep, rapid eye movement (REM) and non-rapid eye movement (NREM). Sleep proceeds in cycles composed of four types of stages of NREM and a stage of REM usually ordered as]
The cycle lasts on average 90 to 110 minutes, with a greater quantity of stages 3 and 4 experienced early in the night and more REM later in the night.
NREM accounts for 7580% of total sleep time. Non-REM is comprised of four stages; stages 1 and 2 are considered 'light sleep', and 3 and 4 'deep sleep' or slow-wave sleep (SWS).
It has been shown that sleep, more specifically slow-wave sleep (SWS), does affect growth hormone levels in adult men. During eight hours sleep, it has been demonstrated in several studies that the men with a high percentage of SWS (average 24%) also had high growth hormone secretion, while subjects with a low percentage of SWS (average 9%) had low growth hormone secretion.
In one very complete study referenced by several others, it was demonstrated that GH secretory rates and peripheral GH concentrations were maximally correlated with sleep stage, with lags of 4.5 and 16 min, respectively, suggesting that maximal GH release occurs within minutes of the onset of stage 3 or 4 sleep.
Furthermore sleep-related augmentation of GH secretion usually occurs around midnight and the GH levels at that time are, as a rule, at their highest during the 24-hour period. Partially, this phenomenon is time-entrained and partially related to sleep itself. It is associated with a slow wave sleep, and the maximal GH levels occur within minutes of the onset of slow wave sleep -Holl RW, Hartman ML, Veldhuis JD, et al. Thirty-second sampling of plasma growth hormone in man]
The origin of nocturnal GH release in humans is still unknown. Most likely hypothalamic GHRH release is a major contributing component, but an additional role of another factor, presumably augmenting GHRH responsiveness of the somatotrophs, is likely. However the precise explanatory mechanisms are still not fully identified.
It is worth reiterating though that nocturnal release of GH makes up only a fraction of the total daily GH release in women, but the bulk of GH output in men.
__________________
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On the topic of GHRP-6 dosing [Here is the range]
Assuming that your GHRP-6 (or any of the GHRPs (i.e. GHRP-2, Hexarelin...) is of the same quality as that used in the studies then 100mcg is enough.
The saturation dose was determined to be 100mcg. So the studies that use GHRP-6 for the most part used either 100mcg or 1mcg/1kg of bodyweight. Consequently most of the GH release numbers for GHRP-6 that we discussed in this thread came from studies on humans dosing 100mcg at a time.
However it has been determined in a few studies, particularly the ones using Hexarelin as the GHRP that the highest dosing after which there is no effect is somewhat variable among people and could be 200mcg to 400mcg.
On the otherhand there has been demonstrated synergy in GH (growth hormone) release between GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) and GHRP-2 (growth hormone releasing peptides) at the following dose]
4
After I finish this cycle I'm dropping down to just 100mcg of CJC-1295 pre-bed w/ GHRP-6. That's only 700mcg per week and that is more than enough to derive a solid longer-term benefit.
I've been on the higher dosing scheme for several weeks with several more weeks to go and I "feel" for me that it may be too high off cycle.
So the lower dose you mentioned need not be considered a "poor man's" dose especially if you use a spot of GHRP-6 (or Hex or GHRP-2 or Ipamorelin) with it.
By-the-way you also proposed a 5 day on/ 2 off protocol with 100mcg of CJC-1295 used at each dosing. The overall levels would look like the numbers I used in the post above except they would be half (50%) of those values.
5
Sub Q or intramuscular
Yes you can ...thats what I do. There is no should when it comes to intramuscular (IM) vs. subcutaneous (SC). Either is fine. There is no local effect nor any real increase in uptake if administered IM. SC was the advantage of being very easy and convenient.
For a lot of human studies they were done via subcutaneous injection.
Never did I see specific reference to intra-muscular. The release curves for the subcutaneous administration looked very similiar to the release curves for I.V. There is not much delay ...a few minutes tops.
Actually unless you are really fat or have scar tissue in the muscle you inject into water based injects have about the same release timing.
I know personally because my insulin injects result in the peak hitting at the same time no matter which way I go.
I also know because after you read study after study you easily see that it doesn't much matter.
6
Eating
You should always try to admininster the CJC/GHRP first and wait a bit before eating.
The reason?
Unlike synthetic GH we are depending on the body to make GH for us. Once GH has been made and is circulating great...but we need to get it made first.
The studies show that circulating fatty acids can really inhibit the production of GHRH and carbs to a lesser extent.
The studies show that circulating fatty acids only blunt but do not inhibit the action of GHRPs. Carbs blunt but to a lesser extent.
It can be argued soundly that it doesn't matter because the CJC (GHRH) is not being made it is being injected. All it needs to do is act on the pituitary...so even in the presence of food it should still function.
However some of GHRP-6s benefit is inducing GHRH release from the hypothalamus. In addition food may blunt some of the pituitary action of GHRH.
So it is best to wait a bit.
How long?
Imagine or refer back to the release curves. GH release happens pretty quickly with either peptide or both together. Within the first 5 minutes the pulse of GH starts to rapidly rise and does so until it peaks at about the 30 minute mark. So I would think that you should always wait at least 10 minutes post administration to eat and if you have the time up to 30 minutes.
In the morning and PWO I administer CJC/GHRP-6 on an empty stomach and wait for 30 minutes. Then my insulin shot (if that happens to be part of my protocol at the time) and I eat.
However pre-bed I usually have plenty of fats in my system. I often (when not dieting) have peanut butter or some combo of fats/protein. I always wait at least 30 minutes after eating my last snack before administering the CJC/GHRP and going to bed.
I don't think the peanut butter in my system really effected my night-time GH release. I've been doing it this way for months and I think it works fine. No night-time hunger and I don't think it interferes with the GH release.
All this to say ...just give yourself a little time between administration & eating. If it is convienent to go 30 minutes do it...if not don't go that long.
Part of the beauty of CJC-1295 is that it stays around. So it is always going to continually act on the pituitary to release GH no matter that you are sometimes eating...
ERRATUM (1/20/2009)]
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Storage
Storage
Freeze-dried powder can be stored at -20 degree C for over a year. Reconstituted solution should be kept in the refrigerator at 2-8 degree C and used as early as possible. Avoid multiple freeze-thaw cycles and exposure to frequent for lyophilized powder or reconstituted vials.
Here are a few interesting snippets from studies on storage]
Storage
The following paragraph comes from a study that sent the peptide home with study participants for self-administration.
Vials were stored frozen until dispensed to the subjects, then kept at 4 C for 10 days at home. High performance liquid chromatographic analysis showed that the peptide was stable at 4 C for at least 2 weeks.
The following seems to indicate that GHRP-6 which is a simple peptide chain unlike IGF-1 which is more complex, is relatively resistant to degradation under the right circumstances at room temperature for almost five years.
The influence of the various buffer species (acetate, citrate, phosphate and borate) was shown to be different and the maximum stability of GHRP-6 was revealed to be in acetate buffer of pH 5.5-6.0. Degradation of GHRP-6 was greater in citrate-containing buffers than in acetate-containing ones. Furthermore, in the citrate-containing buffers, the higher buffer concentration caused greater degradation than the lower ones, but the concentration effect was negligible in acetate-containing buffers. Aqueous solution of GHRP-6 buffered with acetate (0.01 M, pH 5.5) showed a predicted t90% of 4.73 years at 20ฐC. - Degradation kinetics of growth hormone-releasing hexapeptide (GHRP-6) in aqueous solution, In Sik Ha International Journal of Pharmaceutics Volume 144, Issue 1, 22 November 1996, Pages 91-97
It is worth noting the characteristics of the primary aqueous solution we use to reconstitute these peptides]Bacteriostatic Water for injection, USP is a sterile, nonpyrogenic preparation of water for injection containing 0.9% (9 mg/mL) of benzyl alcohol added as a bacteriostatic preservative. It is supplied in a multiple-dose container from which repeated withdrawals may be made to dilute or dissolve drugs for injection. The pH is 5.7 (4.5 to 7.0)
Or for GHRH
Quote]Originally Posted by datBtrue;
In general the following applies]Therapeutic Peptides and Proteins:
Formulation, Processing, and Delivery
Systems, Second Edition
by Ajay K. Banga
5.5.4 Storage in solid state
Lyophilized powders can be quite stable as long as they are not reconstituted.
For example, Activaseฎ lyophilized powder shows no significant loss of
bioactivity after storage for more than 4 years at controlled room temperature.
Degradation in the solid state often takes place by aggregation. The
stability of a protein in the solid state is dependent on the moisture content
of the solid, temperature, and composition of the formulation....
These degradation factors become more important the longer the chain of amino acids becomes & with the inclusion of amino acids sensitive to degradation.
Storage of unreconstituted peptides in frozen form (devoid of moisture) is always far more preferable for long-term storage then reconstituted peptides.
GHRP-6 is a simple chain with no extra-sensitive amino acids. But Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) is more sensitive because it is a longer chain composed of some sensitive amino acids. The added bioconjugation complex of CJC-1295 appears to be stable and shouldn't effect degradation/life of the peptide it is attached to...GHRH.
To answer stability questions the best way is to find studies that specifically examine the stability of the peptide you are interested in.
We have already looked to a very comprehensive study of GHRP-6 now lets look at a stability study for a slightly modified GHRH (and by undeclared assumption CJC-1295).
Investigation of the chemical stability of a new growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH) analogue by HPLC, M Idei, I Mezo, EZ Szabo, and G Keri, Biomed Chromatogr, March 1, 1996; 10(2)]
The stability of a new active growth hormone-releasing hormone analogue (D-Ala2,Nle27,(gamma-amino-butyric acid)30-GHRH(1-30)-NH2) was investigated during storage at different temperatures in aqueous solution. Samples stored for various periods of time were analysed by HPLC.
It is concluded that in aqueous solution D-Ala2, Nle27,(gamma-amino-butyric acid)30-growth hormone-releasing hormone (1-30)-NH2 is stable]
GHRP-6, GHRP-2 and Hexarelin
GHRP-6, GHRP-2 and Hexarelin are all interchangeable. They are treated as interchangeable in the studies. They work via the same mode of action. Their slight differences are probably attributable to the different "batches" of non-pituitary neurons they excite. One peptide may excite one "batch" more or less than another.
Hexarelin is the strongest of the GHS peptides. It also induces higher amounts of cortisol & prolactin then the other peptides. It may (according to one comparison study) desensitize quicker. GHRP-2 is a little less strong with less impact on cortisol & prolactin. GHRP-6 has very little impact on cortisol & prolactin (although it is a little elevated above 1mcg/kg dosing) and is a little less stronger than GHRP-2.
So you could choose whichever is cheaper. I know GHRP-6 & GHRP-2 cost the same to make. However GHRP-6 at the moment at retail level is a lot cheaper...
There is no direct benefit to combining GHRPs because they all act through the same mode of action. You just choose one and run it from the saturation dose of 100mcg up to the maximally beneficial dose (which would be 300mcg - 400mcg) at each administration.
I know on the web you see old posts where people talk about the positive effect of combining Hex & GHRP-6. Thats just incorrect. What you do is make a decision on how much GHS you want to run and then choose among the GHS (GHRP-2, GHRP-6, Hexarelin, Ipamorelin). If you really wanted to combine peptides you could choose to use a total peptide dose of say 300mcg which you could apportion half (150mcg) to GHRP-2 and half to GHRP-6 OR use Hexarelin , GHRP-2, GHRP-6 in equal thirds to fill that 300mcg dose slot.
However there is no synergy between these GHRPs and no advantage to dosing these peptides together. I wouldn't combine them to reach my total. I'd just run one and if I ran out and had another on hand I'd continue with that one.
Personally I would be careful with Hexarelin. The upper ranges of dosing 300 - 400 mcg are likely to induce desentsitization and may require time off and will induce the most prolactin & cortisol release.
With GHRP-6 you can dose all the way up to 400mcg & not worry these issues. I don't really worry much about these issues with GHRP-2 either. With GHRP-2 I'd just make sure to avoid dosing much above 200mcg.
CJC-1295 without DAC
Most people are using CJC-1295(without DAC). This is what I call modified GRF(1-29).
GHRH (Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone) as it naturally occurs has 44 amino acids. But because the final 15 amino acids have no effect on GH release (or any other yet ascertained value) they were dropped in the synthetic construction of GHRH. This synthetic construct is called Growth Hormone Releasing Factor (GRF) and the number of amino acids are designated (1-29).
So GRF(1-29) is really the active part of GHRH and it is both a prescription drug called Sermorelin & a research compound called GRF(1-29).
An analog is when changes are made to the structure of GRF(1-29). The primary analogs make these changes by substituting some of the amino acids with others. This is done to increase potency via an increase in receptor-binding strength and or increase half-life by reducing susceptibility to degradation.
The analog that we are most familiar with is modified GRF(1-29), called Tetra-substituted GRF(1-29) in one of the CJC-1295 studies. This analog is also known to us because the Chinese brokers called it this (but is NEVER EVER referred to in scientific literature as) CJC-1295(without DAC).
To the world of science CJC-1295 ONLY refers to GRF(1-29) w/ the modifications, plus a 30th amino acid Lysine attached to a drug affinity complex which enables plasma binding to albumin (post injection).
So to directly answer your question using your terminology CJC-1295(without DAC) is the correct choice.
..
ANTI-CATABOLISM -> Ghrelin, GHRP-2, GHRP-6, Hexarelin Ghrelin, Des-Acyl Ghrelin, GHRP-2, GHRP-6, Hexarelin = Promote Differention & Fusion of Muscle Cells
Insulin and overeating will cause a gut, not these peptides.
Frag is good for fatloss, but you must take it on an empty stomach, do cardio, and then not eat for another 30-60mins for your freed fatty acids to be utilized.
ghrp6 will stimulate hunger and is typically used in a bulk, but can be used in a cut, just like any steroid can be used in a cut. But it can make you ravenously hunger. It will also stimulate prolactin and cortisol to a degree which can inhibit fat loss.
ghrp2 doesn't increase hunger as much, but still causes a rise in prolactin and cortisol
You DO NOT want to use regular cjc1295 as it causes a gh bleed which mimics how gh is released in a female. You want to use cjc1295 W/out DAC as this allows for better/more frequent gh pulses.
ghrp2, 6, and ipamorelin (which I am currently using) are all ghrp (growth hormone releasing peptides) and the ipa is the 'cleanest' w/the fewest sides. Typical doses are 100mcg 3x/day (bodybuilding/fatloss purposes) OR 100mcg before bed (fatloss purposes, anti-aging). I have not noticed an increase in hunger on the ipa.
You would also want to include a ghrh (growth hormone releasing hormone) with a ghrp as they have a synergistic effect w/eachother as one causes the release of your natural growth hormone and the other causes a huge spike in said gh.
As common ghrh is the aforementioned cjc1295 w/out dac which would also be dosed at 100mcg 3x/day along with your choice of ghrp.
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